good point i never thought about how trading affects the market but i have to disagree with your point that it hurts dvd sales more than torrents. my opinion is based on the number potential contacts and who has access. 

here are my reasons for this thinking(i may be wrong)

1. the ratio of direct contact of distribution of copies. a trade ratio of direct contact is 1:1. the direct contact ratio of torrents is 1:hundreds or thousands, its potential outreach is unlimited and infinite. anyone with a PC can install the software and begin downloading instantly and in my opinion that a bigger potential of loss to sales. in a trade you lose 1 customer with torrents you lose hundreds.

2. if you make a personal copy for you or a friend i think thats allowed under fair use (i could be wrong, open to correction) but if you just upload to some unknown server for digital distribution it could end up anywhere in the hands of anyone. you have no control over where it goes you could even be uploading to a fed. 

3. to establish a trade you have to have had built up a personal relationship with those you wish to trade with.(at least from my experience) maintain relationships and earn respect and trust. while torrents are more instant gradification point and click and are more emotionally detatched and the ratio of saying thank you is quite low.

but i'm not trying to debate whats better than what because the thing hardest to understand is the paradox that these same points can be used to argue for pro-torrent pundits. i'm simply speaking directly to your points and its only my opinion not gospel

the pros of torrents

1. infinite potential to reach people 

2. insider relationships are nullified there is no one is excluded from enjoying the film

3. newbies can have a level playing field with everyone

in fact i think trading adds to the pool of common films found in collector circles. for example if you want to trade with toby russel you better start digging up some rares or it ain't going to happen.

in all honesty trading has always been a part of the rares scene people were doing tape trades via message boards for over 15 years. people have been trading tapes even before dvds were invented so to say it affects dvd sales more than torrents is incorrect and irresponsible to say.

i can only speak for myself but i only trade for what i can't buy. 20 year old vhs/LD rips so i have no other choice but to seek out a copy from another fan. that also speaks directly to the variety of whats availible on torrents vs a trade. on torrents vhs rips are shunned and looked down on. availible dvds is the prefered choice. in my opinion thats irresponible because it is more directly coralated to dvd sales

the big problem in my opinion is irresponsible behavior and reckless unthinking and defies logic   

you won't see the points if you are not looking for them so in no way am i to convince anyone to change their thinking i'm just putting it out there.

kaleyboy wrote:

---

I know what you mean, everyone blames torrents for killing legit DVDs, almost as a default argument without any real evidence to back it up. All DVD sales are in decline, even hollywood blockbusters, so kung fu is not alone in finding itself in trouble (for legit releases). I personally think trading has had a bigger impact than torrenting; many people trade for between 50 - 100 films at a time; it would take forever to build up enough torrent ratio to download that many films at once. Also, many old school collectors don't even know how to torrent, yet trades have been happening for decades. I also believe the reason kung fu fans are so tight in regards to buying releases is partly down to trading; once you get used to getting a film for free, there's a tendancy to wait for a film to become available in trading circles rather than pay for a copy up front. I'm sure many people see fan projects in a similar way, thinking to themselves that they'll wait to trade for it.

---

 another excellent point about fan projects and people waiting to trade for them. your right there are people that may do that but thats a null point in my opinion because the way we approch fan projects is different from a dvd company. dvd companies are strickly for profit period. fan releases are done to fill a void left buy dvd companies, its a service for fans and it serves a purpose or tries to accomplish a goal for example when we did miss be patient our only goal was to get the movie subtitled and out there for fans. we lost money but we still concidered it a sucess because many fans out there were made happy because 1. the film was dead rare and 2. fans were able to understand it for the very first time and those 2 reason are greater than $ in the eyes of a real fan.

we have never utillized a legit companies dvd print and just simply dubbed it or any of that foolishness we source our own prints and choose titles not being released. if they were released in the past our new sourced prints are an upgrade and are superior to the out of print dvd version. if someone just grabs a dvd companies dvd and dubs it i can understand it being torented and not sold BUT that has great potential to harm the dvd market. and thats not what we do.

so if people choose to undercut, undermine or oppose a fan release they are doing themselves a dis-service and not us we can watch the films we own anytime we want to. its just our way of sharing with the fandom in a sustainable way to keep injecting rares in collector circles. anyone that knows me knows i'm no bootleg master lol so anytime we are offering up products folks should know something a lot bigger is coming down the pipe we need to pay for such as subtitling or our telecine project. i have not mentioned much about those because i don't want to announce anything unless its release is a slam dunk! so if people are waiting to trade for fan project my advice is keep waiting. its not my job to convert them to our way of thinking i prefer to deal with people that are like minded and understand/respect what we are trying to accomplish with these projects. those that want them will buy them

I think the main thing is that people will always want to pay less and that means getting things for free is the ultimate and that is for anything.

Now, how do we market a fan project and how can we make a few $$$ in order to repay our initial investment?
Certainly not with nice words and pity lol!

So I guess a MINIMUM # of orders seems to be the best way to go. I couldn't come up with another idea.... :(

in my humble opinion this is the problem. when people make things about money. thats when you run into problems.(the root of evil) thats what keeps people fighting each other. its not about profit, that small minority that are obsessed with throwing a monkey wrench in other peoples plans because they think someone is making a profit are just big *******s with selfish ways of thinking. they are blindly lashing out don't even realize what they are denying them selves and other fans. they are just haters, they don't even understand why they react with that emotional response. their thoughts and actions are irresponsible and harmful. they are what keeps big companies holding on the the films we want to see. as the profit shrinks so does our chances of seeing these films. when a group of fans start something up to fill a void for the betterment of the whole fandom it is foolish for individuals for selfish reasons to try to disrupt something thats good for the collective. without using logic or reason to understand each other and uplift everyone as a whole we will never progress as a community or garner respect from those outside the genre. if the whole fandom united its buying power many of these big companies would have to come correct. for example kung fu fans are fans of other genres so if we express in a responsible way our dis-satisfaction with for example protest warner bros holding back drunken master 2 and pedicab driver and clearly express what is acceptable to us and what our expectations are. then we 1.boycott all warner bros product during a specific time 2. have visible expression of discontent (a celebrity spokesperson is more visible) 3. present a tangible alternative to whats present and how warner bros are handling the films 4. any recordable loss in profit due to your protest will force them eventually respect what you have to say. imagine public events burning warner bros product attended by celebrities and media and getting coverage of the protests. it would have an affect at the least get their attention and get them listening. heck you my gain a few more fans and regain long lost fans of these films.
but if you act in a irresponsible manner 1. downloading/copying/trading(irresponsibly) 2. not making your dis-satisfaction known in protest 3. not expressing the fan bases buying power 4. acting like spoiled children.
the big companies will never see the potential in the genre they will never have respect for the fans of these films and they will continue to consider theses films as useless and unworthy of attention. the only way to make them respect our genre is to make them respect it. they bought films up seeing a potential market but when people started the car boot culture and they saw no profit, they realized the fans themselves have no respect for the films(misconception) and there was no numbers to prove otherwise. therefore no way to measure the interest or to continue with the releases. there simply wasn't the numbers to support and sustain it. they just take it as a tax write off the films became more valued as a tax write off. thats why they spin off the sub labels so they can capitalize on losses without affecting their main company. and in warners case they can no longer write it off in taxes until they do something else to release them(form a new company) but running around mad at companies without expressing this dis-satisfaction and engaging in self-genre-destructive behavior by self canabalizing the market is counter productive. maybe some of the older collector/fan generation see this new breed of i want everything and i want it free types as as much of a hinderance as the companies holding wanted titles hostage for ransom. even some fan run companies have stopped releasing films. right now 85% of people that like these movies are not active buyers in the recordable market. thats old and new fans. so the people that wait for something to come out just so they can trade for it are the main reason its almost impossible to reach out to big companies, big collectors(for trades) and why without fan support groups like fusubs stop what they are doing. this is all speculation on my part but in my opinion very reasonable. you should understand this kaleyboy as you guys tried to do something for the genre before. we can't stop people from trading or torrenting its a choice they make but think for a moment what is their goal?? their goal is to acquire the FILMS so if you value these films so much think to yourself why would you not support their release and why would you threaten the chance of them coming out in the future? we are all about fans uniting their buying power and coming together for a common goal to preserve and distribute rare films that have no chance of release. we are not anti-torrent or anti-trade or anti-company we are pro-responsibility pro-logic and pro-kung fu film. we want to see these films and we want to see them in a responsible way with as much as the fandoms support as possible. i personally spend more time and effort doing public service and trying to bring all the fans together than trying to capitalize on these films. as shown by the ratio of films we own and films we release. we don't do it to fill our needs we do it to fill the needs of others. our goals of subtitling unsubbed movies, releasing ultimate upgrades and telecine/preservation of movies on film are not for ourselves the work is greater than ourselves. so people sabotaging our efforts are only hurting themselves in the long run and those with the mind frame of instant gratification hurts us all. it don't matter if its a fan release or a big company release.

I agree but hoarders will be hoarders. Theree are no exceptions in any hobbies.

Yes and no, it's always the start of wars as we seen in the past. Also, you added that as your signature on KFC: "rare always cause grief". and I cannot agree more with that.

So yes, people out there with rare films will be seen as enemies if they don't release their films... However, others might be or want to be regarded as gods because they don't release those films but possess them... Personally I don't really care.

Now, by saying who these people are?! I think anyone who's been on the Kung Fu scene for at least 5 years know the main players pretty well.

I just remember one post on KFC a long time ago, I think it was about Black Dragon River or another rare film and someone asked politely to the person who had the copy if he would release it somehow. The answer was "That is in my safe and I lost the key". So that's what I call hoarding and it's only for showing off "look I have the film but you guys CAN'T have it, F*** Y** and thank you" lol.

Of course there are other people like let's say "US" with rares that we don't share yet but we are probably eventually going to share them if the community is responsive... That is not hoarding.

-- Edited by Monkeygift on Monday 18th of June 2012 08:28:57 AM

downloading movies from torrent sites can and will kill a movie company's business.look at all of the Shaw Brothers films that we will probably never see remastered because of the thieves that rip movies from torrent sites ,that would not buy a DVD.anyone that thinks otherwise is probably the thief that's ripping movies from torrent sites.lol it's incredible to me ,think about it,all of these years we were getting these bad ass copies of the shaw brothers films,had no choice but to deal with bootlegs,celestial comes out with these gems remastered with movie info,filmographys etc... these ****in thieves continue collecting the bootleg copies.is that crazy as ****,or what???LOL LOLi have an extreme dislike for guys that do this ****.the cats that's loading them up on youtube for the thieves to steal,i despise you as well,you're apart of this theft ring.these ****in thieves did not allow celestial enough time to even get kill a mastermind,thunderclap,lover's blade,mission impossible out on the shelves. a was so looking forward to a remastered widescreen print of the Killer.lol i was like finally a good copy of the Killer.it was not to be because of these ****in thieves.guys on youtube and other torrent sites loading up license videos,i hope that your ****ing computer catches a virus and you lose all of your files and data,thieving mutha****as.lol lol lol

-- Edited by Fist on Wednesday 20th of June 2012 04:42:55 AM

-- Edited by Fist on Wednesday 20th of June 2012 04:44:27 AM

Fist wrote:

---

I SEE YOU KALEYBOY . I HAVE'NT FORGOTTEN YOU ON THAT GIFT THAT YOU SENT.THAT WAS MAD LOVE,MUCH LOVE TO YOU MY BROTHER.

---

 No problem Fist, all the best buddy. Glad I could help you out.